Well first of all - great comments on the previous post which referenced the Time article.
Laura made a really good point in the comments which I have been dwelling on for a while, and I have also just returned from a conference at which one of the speakers made a comment which was rather provocative - particularly with regard to what we had been talking about.
I totally agree that we need to start giving out of the little we have. In fact, most charities like the Red Shield Appeal find that the richer suburbs are often the least generous.
One of the speakers at conference said that there is nothing we can do to help others if we don't have money/resources. I disagreed at first, but then he went on to explain... we cannot send a letter of encouragement as we need to pay for the paper and postage stamp. We cannot call them as we need to pay for the phone call. We cannot go and visit them as we need to pay for the petrol.
And I started to think he was right. While money is not the only thing necessary to help others, without it, we can't really do anything. We can't even survive ourselves in order to help others.
Even Mother Theresa would have needed financial support for her own needs - the place she lived, the sheets for her bed, the food she ate etc and also which allowed her to live and care for people, to feed them, to give them medicine and shelter....
I'm still thinking and dwelling on this and value your thoughts.
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"While money is not the only thing necessary to help others, without it, we can't really do anything."
I am still not sold (pardon the pun) on this...
We do NOT need money to raise our voices against the injustices and gross inequities in the world.
As a tool for mission and evangelism, should not the Spirit of God be enough to sustain and substantiate His work in the world.
Money is material and when we focus on the material too much we lose sight of the spiritual.
Its interesting that even Jesus had a few rich women who helped support him financially during his years of teaching.
Luke 8:1-3
1After this, Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with him, 2and also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out;
3Joanna the wife of Cuza, the manager of Herod's household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means.
^^^
I dont mean to cause offence, but this is terribly vague, and i cannot see evidence that these women were directly giving money to the ministry of Christ.
I like the the pun Professor.
And while I think we should all speak out againt injustice - how do you do that if you have no money? Even simplistically - if you have no money, and can't eat - you'll die. And then you can't raise your voice.
And how do you raise your voice if you can't travel anywhere to talk to people?
The spirit of God empowers us, yes. We do not live by bread alone - but we do need bread.
The key is to not let it become a focus - but a tool.
Re Luke 8:1-3 (oh and I'm sure Sarah isn't offended - she doesn't take offense easily!)
The word "support" in verse 3 is the greek word diakonevw which is the transliterated Word - Diakoneo. It means
1. to be a servant, attendant, domestic, to serve, wait upon
a. to minister to one, render ministering offices to
b. to wait at a table and offer food and drink to the guests
c. to minister i.e. supply food and necessities of life
The word "means" in verse 3 is the Greek word Jpavrconta which is the Transliterated Word - Huparchonta. The definition of that word is possessions, goods, wealth, property.
So it is definitely saying they were using their money to help support his ministry.
There's lots of great ways to access word studies online. yay for the internet!
"The word "means" in verse 3 is the Greek word Jpavrconta which is the Transliterated Word - Huparchonta. The definition of that word is possessions, goods, wealth, property. "
I also did some sleuthing on the internet...
and found a NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon.
'Private Means' is translated uJpavrcaw, transliterated: Huparcho. quite similar to the above....BUT when i consulted the definition, it was quite different...
Huparcho means:
1. to begin below, to make a beginning
a.to begin
2. to come forth, hence to be there, be ready, be at hand
3. to be
on further investigation, the word Huparchonta is not referenced in the New American Standard Bible.
So the NIV says that they gave money, but the NAS says that they didnt. how unusual.
The NASB has been often credited as the most scientifically accurate translation of the Bible.
Now...as a footnote,
I do not disagree that Jesus' ministry may have been financially supported by these women, that is not a problem. The reason I am collecting all this information is not to be an annoying person and create conflict, rather, I am attempting to limit the assumption used when reading the Bible. If assumption is used, then the Bible cannot be claimed to be so BLACK and WHITE. There are far more grey areas than some people would like to admit.
hmmm...i dont want to write a blog about the NASB, but yes...when i say scientifically i mean, most literal translation. word for word, it is probably the most accurate.
I didn't research the NIV?
Interestingly, when I was speaking with some translaters from Wycliffe Bible transators they said that the NLT is probably the best translation we have. The issue of word for word vs thought for thought is an interesting idea to examine. Can you send me your sources re NASB?
However, one important thing to remember is to look at a verse as part of a whole message - not isolating one verse and trying to build a point from that. What is the overall message coming through?
There are certainly some things that are black and white, and anything that is in contention is not issues of salvation.
The MOST important thing is to recognise it is the living word of God - and let him bring revelation to us from His word!
Congrats Prof - you sound intelligent and we're all really impressed. Now, how 'bout you drop the academics and start concentrating on something that will actually help people, rather than a pontificating over Greek translations (Which reminds me, when it comes to Greek, check your tenses and subjunctives).
You know full well that there's nuthin' wrong with using money in ministry, and there's nothing wrong with having it. Like rorygirl pointed out - stay on topic
One thing I love is discussing and inquiring and asking questions I can't always answer and I like inviting lots of people into a conversation.
I don't know who Phillybaby is, but I do know who the Professor is, and I am quite happy for both of them to be a part of this conversation. I don't like people who just say what I want to hear, or know I will agree with, so I value the Professors perspectives on things! I was quite happy with the way the conversation was moving into questions of translation - although may start a new post on that to cut down comment count on this one.
So all are welcome!
(By the way - can anyone tell me what a subjunctive is?)
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